[edais]

Haha.  Apparently this still is a discussion board.  Even though certain large blocks of posts sometimes get deleted…cough crystal sky cough.

[PookztA]

Haha.  Apparently this still is a discussion board.  Even though certain large blocks of posts sometimes get deleted…cough crystal sky cough.

indeed sir, it is! not sure what happened with the Crystal Sky discussion, but glad you have joined this one! the more the merrier with such a relevant topic if you ask me…

[Pauldo]

the crystal sky discussion got krazy…like 4-5 pages about a fire in the middle of the dance floor.  it's been the only discussion on the forum ever that I was happy to see go away

[AlienAudience]

Abe,

You seem to to be very unhappy and have much discontent about this country and the way things are…perhaps you should leave. Maybe you will feel more comfortable and your ideals will be aligned elsewhere.

I will answer your question.  Why did we have but two choices in 2004?  We didn't.  Look, back then I wasn't yet of age, so I didn't have any choice.  But, according to wikipedia, depending on what state you lived in, voters for President in 2004 had no less than these choices to vote for:

Gene Amondson
Michael Badnarik
Walt Brown
George W. Bush (winner)
Róger Calero
David Cobb
Earl F. Dodge
John Kerry
Ralph Nader
John Parker
Michael Peroutka
Bill Van Auken

If what you really wanted was a dialogue on the two party system, then we have a lot more to discuss that will take us back to the very same kind of discussions our founding fathers had in their taverns and coffee houses in the mid 1700's.  But, Abe, Americans have been ruminating and complaining about the weaknesses of the two party system for ages; I doubt we can add more than what has already been debated.  

I can't answer why those two emerged as the two from the two party system.  To find that out, we'd have to ask everyone who voted why they made the choice they made, wouldn't we?  That is a rather daunting task, but I really don't know how to answer your question.

You made a point (again) of emphasizing the fact that Bush and Kerry were both skull and bones members.  On the surface I ask, so what?  What is the implication?  That somehow those two weren't really different choices because they belonged to the same organization when they were in their mid twenties?  I don't buy it, if that was the point.  I seem to recall lots of energy and emotion over swift boat adds and the like that had both camps taking wild swings at each other.  I'll bet those who were emotionally invested in each candidate back then would find any such implication that they were of the same political doctrine insulting.  Sorry, but I don’t find any part of the fact they were both members of skull and bones alarming.  Or at least no more alarming than any other person joining an organization where members join because they are invited by other members.
Is our system unfair?  Should we have more choices and better choices for President?  Fairness and what are ‘better choices’ are themselves questions that can be debated.  I can already tell that what I think is fair and what you think is fair probably will be different.  Better choices?  The ones we have are determined by ‘us’, through a process refined since 1765 or so, which I happen to think is pretty fair.  Maybe this is but another example of the adage ‘we have met the enemy and it is —us!  Us in this case are all of us who have lived in this country since that time.

I sincerely think we had at least two decent, fair choices running for President in 2008.  Can we agree on that?  If not, what was unfair about that election or the elective process and why weren’t they good choices?  Who was better that we, as the electorate, missed or should have elected?  I’m trying to see why what has happened since the 2004 election (which you seem hung up on) hasn’t been overcome by the events of 2008?
Here is what I’m thankful for:  At least in this country we have choices.  For now, I’ll take that and see if we can agree on that.
As for secrecy, I'll address that also.  I don't like secrecy.  I want transparency in government (Obama ran on that very premise, which some in the media have questioned him on lately).  But, I also realize there are times when secrecy is needed (just as Obama has found out).  For example, I happen to think the Pentagon shouldn't reveal how they would conduct a war if North Korea suddenly decided to attack South Korea.  I would hope you and I would agree that is a 'secret' that is a type of secrecy that is acceptable in our country.

As for secrecy in the Federal Reserve, that is another time where I would hope you and I would agree some secrecy in even that organization is necessary.  Since it is the center of money policy of our way of government (and I will agree, perhaps even the world, since we are still financially the strongest country, though China is coming on strong.  Now, that is scary!) I would hope the reasons for some secrecy is obvious; our whole monetary system would collapse if everyone knew in advance when and by what amount, for example, the Fed was going to raise or lower interest rates and could then presumably act on that knowledge for personal gain.  And, yes, some on the ‘inside’ probably already do profit from such knowledge.  It is called corruption and thank goodness we have some devoted professionals in the FBI to root out such corruption.  Yes, some in the FBI overstep their bounds and can themselves be corrupted.  I’m not going in circles
here; I’m just trying to head off other debates on the FBI and whether or not they can be trusted, since we know they operate secretively.
So, we aren't really discussing the merits of secrecy, just when and where in government it is acceptable, right?  Do I like it?  No, but I see the need for it.  If you think all decisions and debate of government officials should be in the open, then there is nothing I disagree with more and there is probably little reason to continue. I’d rather we examine what we can agree on, rather than where we can’t.  I happen to think our form of government is absolutely the worst, the most terrible one, except for all the rest.  But, I don’t think there is some grand conspiracy in everything in government just because I’m not part of it and can’t ‘see what’s going on’.  I happen to believe in the natural ‘goodness’ of most people, including our elected officials.  But, I’m also not naïve to think some who we elect will use that power we’ve given them for ill purpose.  And, for that reason, we should be vary and suspicious, but not the point of being unreasonable about it.  But, I realize we might not agree on what’s ‘unreasonable’ either.
I need to apologize to all those above the age of 28.  I’m not there yet, so I can’t and shouldn’t have commented on what and why someone of that age would believe something in my earlier post.  I wrote that in the heat of my sarcasm, and after re-reading it realize that comment was too ‘over the top’.
But, Abe, I’ve got to ask, why did you say, “thanks for contributing to this discussion everyone! you too Trevor, your opinion is very much valued.”, when you addressed the whole post to me personally? No one else had even responded since my post. That sounds a bit patronizing doesn’t it?  You don’t really have to answer that or any other question I’ve asked here or in my earlier post – this will surely be my final response on the topic and anything similar.

In closing, Abe, I have personally witnessed you hop from conspiracy to conspiracy over the course of the last 3-4 months, becoming equally as passionate and excited about them as they were discovered by your searching. And moreover, each time you 'unveiled the truth' you tried to convince the people around you(which was me more than once). This whole mutating stream of conspiracy conjecture has been re-worked way too much for me – Zionists are taking over our country/secret societies/9/11//Federal Reserve/Moon landing blah blah blah you've been into it all. Heck, not two months ago you tried to convince me that Alex Jones was a truth spreading saint who had 'figured it all out' Apparently that wasn't so, eh? I don't put stock into conspiracy like you but If you want to place credence into these types of theories, I'm ok with that. We've reached a stalemate with our debate and it's time to agree to disagree. I won't get in your way anymore now. Carry on!

P.s. It's ok to have an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

[PookztA]

Trevor & Everyone,

1. Trevor, it is hard to hold a discussion with you because you keep accusing me of things, such as being misled, fantasizing, conspiring, losing my brain, and/or being unpatriotic, all of which are untrue. You haven't shown any proof whatsoever that any of the information I have shared is false, yet you speak as if you have. You have accused me of failing to use common sense / logic, and of being unpatriotic, when neither accusations are true. I am sorry you feel this way about me.

I have a few questions for you, Trevor: Do you even value my intellect, judgement, or opinion? Do you think I would be putting my self out there as that 'crazy conspiracy theorist guy' if I didn't believe in this with my entire mind and heart? The global crisis is REAL Trevor, regardless of whether you will acknowledge it or not. No, I don't know the cause of it all, nor do I claim to. No, I don't know the exact role of secret societies in the crisis, nor do I claim to. But I DO know that with all the technology and human greatness out there, that we can have a better society, and the reason that our society is not progressing as quickly as it truly could is because the 'powers that be' (corrupt high-ranking political members, government officials, policy makers, bankers, financers, corporations, etc.) are resisting change in order to maximize profits off those 'below' them.

2. Trevor, I LOVE OUR CONSTITUTION, I LOVE OUR GOVERNMENT, I LOVE OUR UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, I LOVE OUR PLANET, & I LOVE OUR UNIVERSE. We have a very awesome government and constitution, but my research has led me to believe that there are some very bad people that have worked their way inside / been appointed to very high-levels in our government, and also some very bad people that are influencing our government from the outside by funding projects and writing policies which will lead to more greed, selfishness, unfairness, and corruption, and less rights and freedoms for the American People. Our government = GOOD. Some of the high-ranking people using our government for their own interests = BAD. I love the United States of America, which is why I am trying to learn about our country's problem so that I can try to help fix it. i am not hopping from conspiracy to conspiracy, i am simply developing a larger and more complete picture as to why things are the way they are. For example, Alex Jones is how many people first learn of the global crisis, and he helped turn me on to it as well. The Obama Deception, made by Alex Jones, was one of my first mind-opening videos regarding all of this, until I began researching more. Through my research I have learned that Alex Jones is now funded by some major corporations, which explains why he always talks about the situation as if our own government system is the problem, when in fact that is not the case. Alex Jones tries to turn us against our own country and to to divide the American people against one another. As Robyo suggested, Alex Jones was once a truth seeker, but is now a paid off conspiring celebrity, just like Michael Moore. Also, i said thanks to Everyone in my last post because there were several responses in the thread that I had not yet replied to or said thank you for, and i decided to do so at the end of my last post even though it was mainly directed at you. I assumed others may read it, so i wanted to make sure that i combined the two posts into one by letting others know that I read their posts as well, not just yours, even though my reply was mainly directed towards you. Sorry if it sounded 'patronizing', as you put it.

3. Trevor, I AGREE that the problem is definitely us as a society, at least to a large extent. If more American citizens thought for themselves and actually did some research on the growing situation, things would never have gotten this bad. I personally was very close-minded to this issue, and was a huge Obama supporter, up until a good friend gave me some information which inspired me to finally look into things for myself. It is when I finally looked into things for myself that I began to truly believe in the things I have mentioned in this thread. I believe that if we are capable of knowing, comprehending, and understanding the true situation we are in, then it is our duty to do something about it, or we are just as bad as those who are doing the bad. This is similar to what Kevin said, about how we are just as guilty as the bad people if we are talking about this but not doing something about it.

4. Trevor, in regards to the Skull and Bones society, had you watched the news report I posted which has video tape of the rituals which take place in the Skull and Bones organization, you would have seen that they require their members to do ridiculous things which are unhealthy for the human mind, including having new members realistically simulate the murdering of another person… so who knows what other rituals they perform when they are not in the wide-open court yard where they may be exposed to hidden cameras or concerned neighbors who may spy from their rooftops. How come neither presidential candidate would discuss the Skull and Bones organization publicly? If it was a harmless brotherly fraternity, why would they be afraid to talk about it? I don't feel like a Skull and Bones secret membership is good experience for a presidential candidate who is supposed to serve the people, let alone for both of the primary (only) presidential candidates we had to choose from in 2004. All the secrecy, murderous rituals, and less-than-qualified people making it on the ballot just made me skeptical about the whole situation, and helped motivate me to look more into it for my self, rather than to just taking others' words for or against it. By posting the Skull and Bones information, i was only hoping to inspire others to look for truth on their own amongst all the secrets and rumors which surround this issue.

5. Trevor, are you actually checking out the videos or websites i am posting before criticizing them? I feel like I did a pretty good job of clearly stating that secrecy at that very high level of public-serving government office is SHADY, and that SHADYNESS should not be allowed in our government, especially in the Presidential Office… That is what bothers me, the fact that the American People really only had a choice between one shady, secretive Skull & Bones member and another. This is unfair and unjust for the American People, and anyone with commonsense will realize this.

6. Everyone, here is another issue: When the Jewish people flocked to Israel during WWII, all the Palestinians were displaced to various small land settlements surrounding Israel, such as West Bank and Gaza. Israel's military continued to attack the Palestinians, sometimes injuring whole families, women and children with their attacks, despite the fact that the original Palestinian inhabitants of Israel had already been displaced. To make matters worse, America gives BILLIONS to Israel each year to fund their agenda, including money to fund their military efforts, and we are still doing so even though our country needs the money during this economic crisis. This is not a conspiracy, this is just factual information. Israel's source of influence on USA politics comes from a group called AIPAC, which stands for the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee (http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp). Each year, AIPAC members meet with countless U.S. congressmen in one-on-one meetings to push the pro-Israel agenda. Although this process of mass-lobbying is legal, it is totally unfair to the American people since the foreign country of Israel has more say over what America will do with its policies and money than many of our domestic lobbying groups do.

         
(LEFT graph): Israeli homes destroyed by Palestinians VS. Palestinian homes destroyed by Israelis since 1967
(RIGHT graph): Daily American Financial Aid given to Israel VS. Palestinians in 2009

How come America gives so much Financial Aid to a country that is causing so much injustice to the Palestinian people that once lived in Israel?

Want to know more facts about the unfair situation / Middle Eastern conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, and America's involvement in the conflict? If so, click here: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Disclaimer: I am not doing anything wrong by simply posting information, and if anyone wants to watch / read / listen to that information and then make up their own mind, then please feel free to do so. I am not trying to sell my beliefs or push people into believing 'conspiracy theories'… I just want to share information that I have found important.

And with that, I will leave you with two very positive movie clips which helped me to realize that this is all part of a great, natural cycle, and that we will most likely see the end of all this greed, corruption, and selfishness, within our lifetimes. Again, it is a great time to be alive if you ask me, and here are two videos which have helped me to feel so optimistic about our global crisis:

-Terence McKenna – We are the future. We must be strong. We must push forward, for the future depends on US. (8 minutes 54 seconds): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy_IWjLOvBo

-A compilation of clips from various documentaries, speaking of how this surge in greed, corruption, and evil are part of a natural cycle, and by simply becoming aware of the situation and losing our fear, that we are helping to accelerate the evolutionary process. CHEERS TO THE FUTURE! (10 minutes 55 seconds): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRo4T675XkE

Take care Everyone, and thanks for reading / watching if you did.

-Abe

[ArchaicRevival]

This is a very difficult thing to debate about because a lot of it is very philosophical. Trevor and Abe are in a pretty heated battle, it doesn't need to be like that. Trevor there is no way you can deny to me that the super rich are in a small group working to get richer. Abe I think the best thing to do at this point is to try and give people an opportunity to make a change. I would say its pretty safe to say most people are aware of the alleged “conspiracies” but you can pretty much assume everyone wants to keep the freedoms they have, if some of those freedoms suddenly disappeared a lot of people would be in an outrage. When something that important to people is threatened you can bet they'll do whatever it takes to resolve the situation 🙂

In my personal opinion I think that some basic freedoms have been taken or restricted over the years in such a subtle way that no one really noticed. This would explain why certain mind expanding substances are illegal. Those who have had certain types of experiences, most commonly associated with psychedelics or near death experiences, see things differently. We can all agree that your perspective changes over time. People commonly question things, things like the government when they take in reality with new eyes.

I think we should all come together on some form of loose agreement, we're all here on the same forum with similar goals. The psy parties everyone helps to host really blow some fucking minds 🙂 Theres no doubt about that. I would like to think that for now, this is the best way to make positive changes in a realistic fashion until another opportunity arises. We the people have a voice, but it has to be 1 voice, together to make a difference.

[PookztA]

This is a very difficult thing to debate about because a lot of it is very philosophical. Trevor and Abe are in a pretty heated battle, it doesn't need to be like that. Trevor there is no way you can deny to me that the super rich are in a small group working to get richer. Abe I think the best thing to do at this point is to try and give people an opportunity to make a change. I would say its pretty safe to say most people are aware of the alleged “conspiracies” but you can pretty much assume everyone wants to keep the freedoms they have, if some of those freedoms suddenly disappeared a lot of people would be in an outrage. When something that important to people is threatened you can bet they'll do whatever it takes to resolve the situation 🙂

In my personal opinion I think that some basic freedoms have been taken or restricted over the years in such a subtle way that no one really noticed. This would explain why certain mind expanding substances are illegal. Those who have had certain types of experiences, most commonly associated with psychedelics or near death experiences, see things differently. We can all agree that your perspective changes over time. People commonly question things, things like the government when they take in reality with new eyes.

I think we should all come together on some form of loose agreement, we're all here on the same forum with similar goals. The psy parties everyone helps to host really blow some fucking minds 🙂 Theres no doubt about that. I would like to think that for now, this is the best way to make positive changes in a realistic fashion until another opportunity arises. We the people have a voice, but it has to be 1 voice, together to make a difference.

well said Josh.

I have no personal beef with Trevor, he is still a good friend of mine and has been so for a long time (IMO), hell, we even lived together for nearly a school year at one point. I just know that once I accepted the fact that this situation is real, then educated myself on it, that I finally lost my fear of it. The truth set me free, and I am no longer afraid of our situation. Now, I am simply trying help others who may have fear to lose theirs as well.

Thanks for commenting on all this Josh. I am going to post interesting links and clips related to this situation in the General Discussion forum to get the forum's opinion on them from now on, rather than posting them here. Any feedback / comments are appreciated.

[AlienAudience]

Trevor there is no way you can deny to me that the super rich are in a small group working to get richer.

Josh, you're absolutely right, there's no way I can deny that. However, I don't think there's a society in the history of mankind, whether it's the Greeks, the Romans, or the Mayans where you couldn’t say the same isn't true.

Those that are in power, those that are in the upper privileged levels of society, are constantly looking for ways to enrich their lives. And the reason for this is a basic, fundamental underlining concept of greed; don’t you agree that greed is inherent in every single person on Earth?

Josh, I know your comment was focused on the super rich and the means they will undertake to enrich themselves, but don’t you also think that this drive exists in mankind in general?  Not to get too philosophical, but our founding fathers in our own Constitution referred to our right to pursue happiness.  For the super rich, that pursuit is, among other things, more money.  Isn’t that also the pursuit of many?  I don’t consider myself someone obsessed with money, but I am trying to better myself.  Heck, one day I’d like to afford my own home, rather than be subsidized in the apartment I reside in.  I see nothing wrong in that – – as long as I don’t put someone else at a disadvantage in my pursuit of my own home and a better life.

[PookztA]

Heck, one day I’d like to afford my own home, rather than be subsidized in the apartment I reside in.  I see nothing wrong in that – – as long as I don’t put someone else at a disadvantage in my pursuit of my own home and a better life.

There is nothing wrong with this if you ask me, Trevor.

If there were no billionaires in this world, we could all be millionaires. (for extreme lack of better words)

There is more than enough to go around. Nicholas Tesla was trying to bring the entire world free energy many many years ago, and almost succeeded in doing so, until his investors realized they would no longer be able to profit as greatly off of their energy investments.

We do not have to live in apartments in order for everyone to be provided for, Trevor. If everyone's goal is to help everyone, than everyone will be helped, and everyone will be benefiting maximally, and the economy will thrive because we are all a part of the same economy. If we only fend for ourselves, we produce isolation and detachment from the global tribe, and others can get left behind. If people get left behind, social tension occurs between upper and lower classes (especially when our primary resources are getting used up), but if we all work together to help each other, to find new information, to find new technology, to find new sources of energy, we all will be provided for, we all will be wealthy, we all will be healthy, we all will be happy, and there will finally be peace.

[Banjankri]

as long as I don’t put someone else at a disadvantage in my pursuit of my own home and a better life.

This is exactly the point of the argument though, there is nothing wrong with pursuing worldly rewards so long as no one is caught under the lockstep, but when we pan out and look at the global corporations and the uber rich, millions of people are forced into less than ideal conditions all in the name of more economic power.

As for greed being an inherent trait in all humans, i would have to mostly agree with this. Children need to be taught to share, they naturally want to keep things for themselves (mommy, cookies, the sandbox, etc) but for most of us it is just small piece of the mental puzzle that makes us human beings and not everyone has the capacity to take their greed to the soaring heights that we see in the highest levels of power. Cruelty is the same way, we all have a mean streak some more than others but not everyone is capable of being a mass murderer.

I believe the problem runs deeper than power hungry people gaining sway over the political machines of the world, like you said Trevor, this type of greed can be found in every major civilization going back to the bronze age. I feel that the problem began when we shifted the way our societies were structured, from a tribal setting (on the earth for several million years and counting) in which the group worked together to provide for everyone's needs (no one starved or they all starved), to our idea of a “civilized” society (10-12,000 years ago) where self reliance is the key and personal gain is the game. One of these is still working beautifully as it has for ages and the other has crumbled time and time again only to have a fresh coat of paint thrown on it, handed down, and passed off as some sort of amazing intellectual accomplishment of mankind.

[AlienAudience]

as long as I don’t put someone else at a disadvantage in my pursuit of my own home and a better life.

This is exactly the point of the argument though, there is nothing wrong with pursuing worldly rewards so long as no one is caught under the lockstep, but when we pan out and look at the global corporations and the uber rich, millions of people are forced into less than ideal conditions all in the name of more economic power.

I understand this was the focal contention of Josh's post but I wanted to paint a different picture with my response and put things in perspective by explaining that this type of greed-driven behavior and avaricious conduct by those in positions of power has been happening since the dawn of organized society. It's nothing new, with the exception of the means by which it is sought and pursued by those with the inimical capabilities on the top tier of privileged society.

[PookztA]

just because it is not new does not mean it is not important. we need to do something about it before our civilization crumbles like the Mayans, Egyptians, Aztecs, Incans, Romans, and others. hopefully our civilization will be a different one, one in which we are self-aware enough, and globally-aware enough, to realize how our actions affect everyone and everything around us, so that we can start to take care of our planet and each other, not just ourselves.

[AlienAudience]

just because it is not new does not mean it is not important. we need to do something about it before our civilization crumbles like the Mayans, Egyptians, Aztecs, Incans, Romans, and others. hopefully our civilization will be a different one, one in which we are self-aware enough, and globally-aware enough, to realize how our actions affect everyone and everything around us, so that we can start to take care of our planet and each other, not just ourselves.

Who said it wasn't important? I agree with this ^

[PookztA]

cool, glad that we agree there.

i guess im just trying to say that by trying to earn a good living, we are not doing anything wrong. but in this time, since we are in a situation where greedy assholes are in high-ranking political offices, i think we must look into the situation, weed through the bullshit, and find out who they are and get them out of there.

so, i know it can be very hard, but in addition to trying to earn a living for ourselves, i guess i just think we should make sure to put forth effort towards bringing justice back to our government along our path, and once we do have more financial stability, that we should put forth even more effort into solving the problem, and employing measures to prevent it ever from coming back.

too many innocent people are dying from starvation, disease, and poverty in general. if we work together, we WILL save lives.

[AlienAudience]

Well said. The feelings are mutual.

[Author]

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