[NightowL]

ive been asking this question to myself for awhile, but now I think its time to really start thinking about it.  How can someone legally create a religion related to psy so parties are legally seen as a church-like session of worship?  you could even go as far as to buy land and build a permanent “church/venue” there, and get tax breaks on top of your guaranteed privacy.  This has to be able to be done, as new “religions” are popping up all the time.  does anyone have any insight or know any websites where I can find out more info about this?

[nodsamadhi]

try the ulc

http://www.ulc.org

[HARDKORNATE]

I had a simpler idea the other day…

Gyms are legal to be open all night with loud music and dancing. Open a gym with a small set of used workout gear and use most of the space for “private spinning classes.”

[thefixer]

I have spent dozens of hours researching this, and the answer is, yes. It would be better to call me on the phone, it's way too complicated to cover here. My partner and I in fact run a legal church. In the U.S. if you have sincere faith, you are automatically a recognized religion, due to the First Amendment. That doesn't apply in many other countries.

But: once you have your religion, what does that give you the right to do? The answer again is very complicated.

If you have sincere religious beliefs, you can start preaching them and automatically, if your followers are sincere, you have a religion. But if you infract the law on the basis that it is part of your religious faith, you better be willing to spend huge amounts of money defending your case, or have some lawyers among your followers.

Also, if you try to make your income tax exempt, expect a challenge from the IRS and expect to spend money and time defending yourself.

Establishing a religion is hard work!! But it can be done.

[Ascension]

Wow, this is an awesome idea, I had never even thought about this before.  I like the idea of being able to get land for this 🙂

[Pauldo]

Same idea…the church would incorporate just like any other corporate entity.  This doesn't mean the church can't be non-profit.  All income from donations would be offset by the expenses of the church.  Everything would be put back into the church, it's programs, rent or mortgage, improvement of it's land and buildings, etc.  You don't have to but you can then also gain 501c non-profit status with the feds.  Not sure what additional tax savings you get for doing a 501???  Fixer has said before that getting a 501c is difficult and a long process.  A chat with Fix probably best.

Also, what would sincere religious belief entail?  Would it necessarily require a belief in a higher power?  A creator?  The belief in the power of psy to heal people and their lives?  Land, buildings, rent or mortgage is going to be a big expense.  Persons with outside employment who want to live in community with other's to cover rent probably to begin with, mortgage later on.  A self sustaining community on beautiful land would be great eventually.  Gatherings could be hosted and a great place for psyheads from around the globe to come for retreat.  No hierarchy, true community, tribal, persons with complimentary skills to add to the community but not necessarily exclusionary of anyone.And, yeah…

Here's an example:

http://www.temple420.org/

[thefixer]

Like Pauldo said, it's a major effort and much harder than you realize.

And Pauldo, sincere religious faith is whatever convinces us it is sincere. Sincerity is not so hard to recognize – it is a quality like trust.

And Ascension, religious faith is not about “getting land” – it is about faith, and everybody recognizes a dodge when they see one. If  that's all it is to you, then you are a liar and everyone will recognize that.

[Ascension]

Like Pauldo said, it's a major effort and much harder than you realize.

And Pauldo, sincere religious faith is whatever convinces us it is sincere. Sincerity is not so hard to recognize – it is a quality like trust.

And Ascension, religious faith is not about “getting land” – it is about faith, and everybody recognizes a dodge when they see one. If  that's all it is to you, then you are a liar and everyone will recognize that.

I didn't mean it like that.  I was just commenting on one of the perks of being able to do something like this :). 

[Pauldo]

And Ascension, religious faith is not about “getting laid” – it is about faith…

some one should tell the catholic priests that!  ;D

Personally I have a sincere belief that psy music is healing/life changing but does that pass the feds definition of a legit religion, if there is one?  Does a legally recognized religion have to address a creator or an after-life in their church doctrine according to the feds?  Can there be such a thing as a secular religion?  There are groups of secular buddhists and I would think they would receive religious protection.  I dunno?  That's one of my questions.  A legal challenge should be expected and it's good to make sure the defense of your practices is on solid legal ground.  Got to know and follow the law in doing this.

I hope there is a bomb ass piece of land for this where we can put up guard towers and barbed wire fencing around the whole perimeter and everyone will get their heads shaved and wear white robes…and nobody ever Ever EVER leaves.  Don't drink the cool-aid!  Mwuahahahahaha!!!! 

[thefixer]

First, you can establish a religion and there's nothing that the government can say about it, because under our form of governance it is a “god given right” (sorry Paul but the Founders weren't atheists) that takes priority over the laws of man. So to answer Collision, he can certainly establish a religion if he has been visited by an angel, had a vision or whatever that motivates him to do so.

BUT if you are going to seek tax-exempt status, buy property, seek variances on laws and ordinances due to your religious faith, smoke pot as part of your church service, then eventually you and the government are going to have to come to an agreement. The IRS tax exemption could be easy, the other things are likely to require heavy court time and lawyers.

Ascension, anybody can get land, it still costs money, the same amount for a church as not. Churches don't get free stuff, they can get tax exemption but that assumes you have that kind of money flow to begin with. Which usually comes from having followers.

Universal Life Church membership isn't going to satisfy any of this. I know of Universal Life “clergy” who were defeated in their attempts to get tax exempt status. You need more than that, you need a church with several dozen/hundred legitimate members, a distinct set of beliefs, and many other things to be seen as a church.

Here is how the IRS defines a church – these are only rough guidelines, not any one of these is a hard and fast rule but you need to be able to satisfy many of these criteria in your own way:

    *
      Distinct legal existence
    *
      Recognized creed and form of worship
    *
      Definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
    *
      Formal code of doctrine and discipline
    *
      Distinct religious history
    *
      Membership not associated with any other church or denomination
    *
      Organization of ordained ministers
    *
      Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study
    *
      Literature of its own
    *
      Established places of workshop
    *
      Regular congregations
    *
      Regular religious services
    *
      Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young
    *
      Schools for the preparation of its members

[thefixer]

To give an example. If your religion requires all night dancing, then your religious book , your Bible, had better say so clearly, and it would help if you had a practice of your hundreds of followers (card-carrying church members) having done that for many years. You would need a priesthood/priestesshood, it's not something that could be done overnight.

Devorah and I have run our own temple since 1994 and we satisfy many of the criteria. We've never had the cash flow to warrant seeking tax exempt status for the church.

[Mr. Roboto]

Reverend Jeff The Fixer of all things and the apostle Pauldo.   😀

[Ascension]

I'm not sure how much help they'd be, but both my sister and her fiance are lawyers who work for the government.  My sister deals with pension planning and her fiance works for the patent office, so they might not have any specific knowledge on this, but could possibly point us in a good direction.  Maybe they ran across something like this in school, who knows.  I'll ask em for ya if you want.

[thefixer]

Hey remember Collision started this thread. Collision has this helped you?

[Pauldo]

Reverend Jeff The Fixer of all things and the apostle Pauldo.  😀

I plan on changing my name from Paul back to Saul…and then start feeding christians to lions again.  ;D

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