[Ascension]

well also Kevin– at the same time, if EVERYONE carried a gun, there would be LESS bullshit random killing sprees IMO.

Think about it —

If you were in a lecture hall similar to NIU when a shooting rampage took place, don't you agree that if some crazy asshole came in shooting that the SHOOTER would be the NEXT TO GO?  I know where my sights would be aimed hypothetically — so (s)he had better hope that they take me out first.  I think that the fact that if everyone, or close to everyone was strapped would reduce the amount of random killings like this because the shooters know that they're not in power — and studies have shown that people carry out things like that because they feel powerful by doing it.  take away that power and what are you left with?

my 2¢. 

Most instances where a shooting like that occurs is due to the shooters poor mental state.  I HIGHLY doubt they would consider something like that before they opened fire.  Sure someone might have been able to take him down sooner, but it's not likely that it would have stopped him in the first place.  It is hard to hit anything with a handgun too, let alone someone shooting at you first while you are trying to take cover and escape.  I just don't think it's worth it.  Plus, just logically thinking about it more people with guns = more likelyhood for accidents.  How many people would have been saved in Blacksburg compared to how many people would have been accidently killed if everyone had a gun at any time before or after that shooting?

Think about how many people can't control their emotions.  What happenes if you cut off or hit a guy who is having a bad day, has anger issues and has a gun in his glovebox?  What about a case where a guy comes home and his wife is sleeping with another man?  There are a lot of violent “passion” crimes that would turn from an assault to murder if the equipment was so readily available.

There would be a lot of people who would take the “using my gun in self defense” out of porportion too.  We all know and have seen how easily the masses scare, imagine a panicing crowd (for whatever reason) that is packing, I don't see how that could turn out well.  Human emotions are simply too unpredictable and americans are too supid.  The fact that I know just 1 person who I wouldn't trust with a gun is reason enough to me for them to not be allowed to have one.

Sorry for the rant, but this stuff pisses me off since it kills people and the people arguing for it, while using a valid source (the constitution), are using something that is completely outdated.  I don't feel that allowing guns ever helps (ie- Flint Michigan has the highest crime rate, but Michigan allows people to carry a weapon…)

[Ascension]

But people who own the guns ARE the problem.  People are just too stupid to own guns imo.  Violent crimes in DC went down every year after guns were banned.  I love shooting guns too, but I think they should definitely be banned.  If we let more people own guns, statistics show that there will be more accidental deaths.  Statistics also show it is 22 times more likely for a gun to injure the people it is intended to protect rather than an intruder.  Arguing against solid logic has never made sense to me, not sure why people do it here.

I wouldn't get so high and mighty on your logic my friend.  Violent crimes have gone down year after year across the country after the DC ban.  DC's drop in violent crime was not statistically any different than any other major urban area.  Connecting the two might not be so logically solid after all.  Yes there will be more accidental deaths but there will also be more people surviving criminal encounters.  22 times more likely…yeah I've got to concede that point.  However, I believe that number is reduced in states that require gun locks.  I also don't think that statistic trumps my rights as a responsible adult to have the freedom to defend myself as I choose.

Criminals who commit violent crimes are the problem.  Canada has more guns per capita yet they have nowhere the level of violent crime that we do.  We really are a pretty violent country.

Re: nationwide drop in crime.  Have you ever read the book Freakonomics?  The author suggests that the drop was attributed to the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision allowing abortion.  Poor people are more likely to have abortions therefore less unwanted/neglected children hence less criminals.   

Do you really feel THAT threated that you feel like you NEED a gun to be safe?  It just seems extreme to me.  Honestly, if I ever felt this way I would move.

[Pauldo]

Have you ever lived in a major American city?  Do I feel that threatened by crime, no.  It is statistically unlikely that I would be a victim of a home invasion.  If I was a victim of a home invasion would I want to have a gun?  Yes! 

I do fear government.  I think a well armed population sends a very strong message to our government and others.  Do you think a holocaust couldn't happen again?  In our country someday?  It's still a very violent world.  I agree, people are stupid, especially politicians.  By no means am I a conspiracy theorist.  I think most con'ies believe what they do to give themselves a sense of special knowledge or power over something they don't have much power or control over.  That is not me.  I believe the threat is real.  Maybe not our generation but

Gun ownership for me is mostly about exercising my individual rights.  The individual is the pinnacle of society for me.  Sure accidents and bad things happen because of guns.  Does that trump my individual right to protect myself?  The debate about the 2nd ammend is between whether guns are a collective right(militia) or an individual right.  In our early militias everyone had to bring their own gun.  How could the writers of the const meant for it not to be an individual right?  How does a law granting individual rights become outdated?

I do appreciate your conversation on this Kevin.   

[Robyo]

When I was younger I thought gun control was a good idea, but then I came to realize that the main reason for gun control is to keep the people in fear mode.

Crime in Chicago is so bad because the criminals know that they can invade someone's home or cap them on the street without fear of retaliation. The city cops know they can abuse the poplulace for the same reason.

And in states like Florida, where the gun laws are very lax, there is a lot less random shooting sprees. However, there IS more of a tendancy for passion killings like road rage.

So freedom is a double edged sword. I prefer people have access to their constitutional rights, over a highly regulated (and expensive) nanny state. It's hilarious that Daley's response to the ruling was that taxes are going to go up now to pay for more cops. If anything, crime will probably go down…

[Ascension]

I guess I will just never see eye to eye with anyone who agrees with this since I don't feel it is my right to own a gun (despite what how interpret the constitution).  I just see it as unnecessary in society today.  Even the most well educated and careful people can have accidents.  A friend of mine told me a story about a buddy of his who had hunted pretty much all his life and when he was 17, he was cleaning out a shotgun that he thought was empty and ended up blowing his face off.  There are plenty of instances like that were I consider their life to be wasted right there because they owned a gun.  No amount of education or experience can prevent human error and that's what concerns me.

I usually never deabte about this subject because it is one of those issues where people almost never change sides.  I respect other people's ideals on the situation, I just don't understand/agree with the logic behind it.  I would like to hear someone's opinion about this who has been in an instance where they could have used a gun (adam told me ben was held at gunpoint once in madison).  I also have a friend who went to VaTech when the shootings happened and he owns several guns and is in favor of gun ownership.

[damon]

I guess I will just never see eye to eye with anyone who agrees with this since I don't feel it is my right to own a gun (despite what how interpret the constitution).  I just see it as unnecessary in society today.  Even the most well educated and careful people can have accidents.  A friend of mine told me a story about a buddy of his who had hunted pretty much all his life and when he was 17, he was cleaning out a shotgun that he thought was empty and ended up blowing his face off.  There are plenty of instances like that were I consider their life to be wasted right there because they owned a gun.  No amount of education or experience can prevent human error and that's what concerns me.

Dude no one forces you to own a gun. It's your RIGHT. If you decide to get one you acknowledge there's a risk that goes with it. Same with driving a car, skydiving or eating a fuckin chips that you can choke on it. I'd rather have that choice and possibility of making that decision on my own rather than being told what can I do by fuckin' dickhead politicians ….

[Ascension]

I guess I will just never see eye to eye with anyone who agrees with this since I don't feel it is my right to own a gun (despite what how interpret the constitution).  I just see it as unnecessary in society today.  Even the most well educated and careful people can have accidents.  A friend of mine told me a story about a buddy of his who had hunted pretty much all his life and when he was 17, he was cleaning out a shotgun that he thought was empty and ended up blowing his face off.  There are plenty of instances like that were I consider their life to be wasted right there because they owned a gun.  No amount of education or experience can prevent human error and that's what concerns me.

Dude no one forces you to own a gun. It's your RIGHT. If you decide to get one you acknowledge there's a risk that goes with it. Same with driving a car, skydiving or eating a fuckin chips that you can choke on it. I'd rather have that choice and possibility of making that decision on my own rather than being told what can I do by fuckin' dickhead politicians ….

But someone else owning a gun can negatively affect me or people I know.  The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness doesn't.  That's why I don't see it in the same scope as other rights of the constitution.

[Robyo]

LOL Damon! Eating chips can be just as dangerous as guns  ;D

[damon]

LOL Damon! Eating chips can be just as dangerous as guns  ;D

Of course  ;D

[Ascension]

LOL Damon! Eating chips can be just as dangerous as guns  ;D

Those Doritos say Extreme for a reason.

[Energon]

I'm totally loving this thread.

Kevin,
How would you feel if someone told you that you couldn't own a huge sound system because you might play it too loudly and irritate someone else? Or told you that you couldn't own a knife because you might cut someone else with it? Or that you couldn't own a car because you might run over someone with it? Or that you can't possess a drug because someone might overdose from it?

It's not the ownership of the tool that needs to be legislated against… it's the actions which can be taken which should be made illegal. It all comes down to self control and personal responsibility for me.

[damon]

It's not the ownership of the tool that needs to be legislated against… it's the actions which can be taken which should be made illegal. It all comes down to self control and personal responsibility for me.

Agreed.

[Ascension]

I'm totally loving this thread.

Kevin,
How would you feel if someone told you that you couldn't own a huge sound system because you might play it too loudly and irritate someone else? Or told you that you couldn't own a knife because you might cut someone else with it? Or that you couldn't own a car because you might run over someone with it? Or that you can't possess a drug because someone might overdose from it?

It's not the ownership of the tool that needs to be legislated against… it's the actions which can be taken which should be made illegal. It all comes down to self control and personal responsibility for me.

You make good points if you ignore the primary purposes of those things…. 🙂  A HANDgun is not intended to entertain, cut food, transport people or cure ailments (for legal drugs). 

It does come down to those 2 things (self control and responsibility), however, not many people can control those 2 all the time.

It's not that I agree with the legislation, I just don't trust people.  If you could guarantee me that everyone would be responsible with their gun, then it would be ok, but you NEVER can.

I also want to ask about this “it being a human right to own a gun” argument.  What about the mentally retarded?  Do you think someone with a mental disorder or extremely low IQ should be able to posses a gun?  Remember, you people said this is a HUMAN right and these people are humans.  Would you REALLY trust someone like that to own a gun?  What kind of regulations would be put in place to prevent this?  Why should they be regulated out of their so called “human right”?

[Pauldo]

I'm bipolar and have been a responsible gun owner for many years.  A mental health condition does not mean a person is homicidal or irresponsible.  Low IQ or ment retar does not mean the person has any bad intentions.  Why shouldn't they have a right to defend themselves in their homes?  If they can live independently then I think they are competent for gun ownership.  If they are not responsible for their own affairs(have a guardian) then I think that is reasonable proof they are not competent.  Same as someone who has committed a felony.  Just having one of those conditions you mentioned does not necessarily preclude one from responsible ownership.

To clarify…this new ruling only effects gun ownership in your home or business?  That's what I have been addressing in my posts.  I do not think this affects conceal and carry laws or strapping on a holster when you go to the grocery store or keeping a gun in the glove box.  I believe previous supreme court rulings allow government to regulate the brining of a firearm into the public domain(public street).  I'm all for training and licensing requirements if someone wants to bring their firearm in public.  Just like we do for drivers ed and drivers licenses.  I agree there is greater responsibility once you enter the public domain.

Can you guarantee that everyone will be responsible with their kitchen knives?

>>Japan knife attack leaves 7 dead 
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-stab9-2008jun09,0,4629101.story

[Ascension]

I'm bipolar and have been a responsible gun owner for many years.  A mental health condition does not mean a person is homicidal or irresponsible.  Low IQ or ment retar does not mean the person has any bad intentions.  Why shouldn't they have a right to defend themselves in their homes?  If they can live independently then I think they are competent for gun ownership.  If they are not responsible for their own affairs(have a guardian) then I think that is reasonable proof they are not competent.  Same as someone who has committed a felony.  Just having one of those conditions you mentioned does not necessarily preclude one from responsible ownership.

To clarify…this new ruling only effects gun ownership in your home or business?  That's what I have been addressing in my posts.  I do not think this affects conceal and carry laws or strapping on a holster when you go to the grocery store or keeping a gun in the glove box.  I believe previous supreme court rulings allow government to regulate the brining of a firearm into the public domain(public street).  I'm all for training and licensing requirements if someone wants to bring their firearm in public.  Just like we do for drivers ed and drivers licenses.  I agree there is greater responsibility once you enter the public domain.

Can you guarantee that everyone will be responsible with their kitchen knives?

>>Japan knife attack leaves 7 dead 
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-stab9-2008jun09,0,4629101.story

And imagine what the death toll would have been if he had a gun instead of a knife.  Human rights aside, do you all actually see gun ownership by everyone as a good idea?  Do you think situations overall would improve if everyone owned a gun?  What makes you think so (for or against)? 

[Author]

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