[Mr. Roboto]

Reverend Jeff The Fixer of all things and the apostle Pauldo.   😀

I plan on changing my name from Paul back to Saul…and then start feeding christians to lions again.   ;D

I think they started doing that at zoos with tigers.

http://www.metafilter.com/67719/Man-killed-by-escaped-tiger-at-San-Francisco-Zoo

[HARDKORNATE]

Reverend Jeff The Fixer of all things and the apostle Pauldo.  😀

I plan on changing my name from Paul back to Saul…and then start feeding christians to lions again.  ;D

I support this. Please start with the fundies before moving on to catholics.

[nodsamadhi]

Reverend Jeff The Fixer of all things and the apostle Pauldo.  😀

I plan on changing my name from Paul back to Saul…and then start feeding christians to lions again.  ;D

I support this. Please start with the fundies before moving on to catholics.

second.

[NightowL]

so fixer, are you telling me that I have to have a book of dietary rules to establish a religion?  basically, what I want out of this is to be able to throw psy trance parties regularly in the privacy of my own land and have it be seen as a church service.  in other words smoking pot wouldnt be legal by any means, but the fact that there would be someone there in the 1st place to try and stop that would be against the only rule, which would be to respect others that are respecting others.  so pot isnt legal, but there would be freedom of fear for the land owners that someone that would want to stop someone else on their property from smoking and getting the owner in trouble as well (because it wouldnt be the church owners problem as the smoker is still respecting others).  I want to be able to throw events regularly in an outdoor property that is covered by law… in other words, if someone disrespects others or themselves and a legal consequence occurs, the “church” would be free from all liabilities as the only dietary rule is “respect others” and that had nothing to do with the church owners message or attempts at what they are trying to do.

does this make sense?  if so is this possible?  my basic idea is trying to make psy trance parties %100 legal through the form of religion so there would never be a legal issue, especially if you had a permanent private venue.

[thefixer]

Well, if you aren't looking for any exemptions from the government, you can create a religion and run it the way you want, and you won't have to worry about those IRS guidelines.

But if you did ever go to court, the first thing someone might say against you is that you set up the religion as a dodge just to throw psytrance parties. If the psytrance party is a religion for you, that's cool. But if you want the government to regard you differently, they are going to apply those IRS guidelines against you to decide if you are legit and not just a scam religion.

Unfortunately the government does not really recognize the rights of individualized religion such as many of us follow. There has to be a church, a body of followers who believe the same thing.

[edais]

This topic's great!  I'd say “the bible” would be the music itself.  The music, the sound are physical creations that manifest the devine, much as worship services, the bible or other book of worship do.  I don't really know at this point whether making psytrance an established religion is a great idea or not.  I'd say so probably because it would further seperate us from other non-fulfilling pursuits, i.e. traditional “raves” or parties that people go to purely to get fucked up.  The great thing is that for most of us, we are already completely devoted followers.  🙂

[thefixer]

You can call anything you want your religion, at least here in the U.S. The question is if you want some special treatment from the government or society. If you don't, no rules apply. If you do, there is a game that you gotta play in the U.S. Again, refer to the IRS rules. As much as your music may make you warm and fuzzy, I don't think music alone would fly in an IRS hearing.

Play the game, or don't play the game, but don't say I didn't warn you.

[Robyo]

maybe we can revitalize the Ghost Dance Religion, but make it more accepting of Whitey.

http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/acs/1890s/woundedknee/WKghost.html

here's a quote: “Believers were encouraged to engage in frequent ceremonial cleansing, meditation, prayer, chanting, and most importantly, dancing the Ghost Dance”

[thefixer]

The Ghost Dance is the worst model for a religion that I can imagine. Read the Wikipedia article. It played an important role in the Wounded Knee Massacre. Yeah, let's all pretend God is coming and going to protect us from all the Bad Things.

[agenthurt]

i want to preface by saying that, i think one day, when the minds of the world are open to a collective consciousness and we obtain a higher existance on this planet, it wont even be an issue.  i appreciate the fixer's cynicism.  you can tell he's done quite a bit of research and put some thought into this.  i appreciate the blunt logic as well.  i always feel like theres such an age gap at times.  lets face it, most of you crazy kooks are 5 to 6 years younger than i am.  i too look at this as a good idea when thrown out but improbably for the most part.  i know that things cant be changed unless someone starts the dominoes going so to speak and amasses a movement behind their cause, but lets face it.  the government, however “free” we supposedly are, tells us what were going to do.  the american way of life is controlled by the few and the media.  look at all the freedoms youve lost since 9/11 for a sense of security.  its very possible that we may have been saved from terrorism in some form of another since then because of measures enacted.  im not ruling that out at all, even though i have my own opinion about the world and wheres its gone in the last 8 years.  regardless of what you believe for that particular situation, i personally feel my freedoms being slowly taken away from me in everyday life.  this is where the whole age thing comes in.  most of you guys are young, in school, have such a great outlook on life.  youve all been through hardships and had doubts about yourselves.  its refreshing to have ideas from you guys because theres such a hopeful outlook in many things.  you havent had the chance to be beaten down by mainstream society and shoved into the mold that society wants you to be.  god bless the lucky ones that can throw caution to the wind and jump head first into sporadic actions and whimsical ideas and just LIVE.  for some of us, its too hard to break that line we walk and to break out of the typical american dream.  me personally, i couldnt stand the thought of a commune.  its just not my cup of tea, but im not going to berate someone for wanting to create a small society that helps and improves itself through learning and compassion.  i am going somewhere with this.  to me, its a really really good idea.  the thoughts put into it are usually really great, however, some of the actions and outcomes hold some negative connotations and are a bit absurd heh.  now, i get the impression that pretty much the main reason for wanting to create a “psytrance religion” is to be able to have a 100% legal, anytime at the drop of a hat lets throw down, type of place to load with your own sound, visuals, equipment, and not have to worry about cops coming in and busting the party or finding anything illegal going on, and be able to play as loud as you want.  you have to understand that while the idea in theory is a great one and i would be willing to support anything in this direction within some limits, there really IS no privacy in the US.  your civil rights in general are being erroded away and by the time you fight and win any sort of court case proving your right to do whatever said thing is, youve just spent the last year in jail and millions of dollars just to tell the government “hey, you cant just come into my house whenever you want.  granted, most of those types of occurances is the general population being ignorant of its rights….BUT….the governmental entities are COUNTING on that!  i can see any attempt at this to ultimately end up in failure.  i hate to be a pessimist about such a good thought, but its really true, especially if the idea here is just to have a place to throw parties at and “get crazy” nonstop.  honestly, i think the best and easiest solution to the quandry would be to buy a farmhouse out in the middle of nowhere.  put up a big morton building or something to that extent.  dump all the money you want into gear, lights, sound.  then sound insulate the place and double check to make sure it cant be heard anywhere.  once you start charging at the door though whether its to put back into the venue, the land, gear…you are essentially fucking with the governments money.  they dont like that.  the whole logic in my post here is this:  money rules the world, money is controlled by the few and by the government, therefore, the government rules you and tells you what to do.  also, when you start bringing up the word “religon” you are walking on really thin ice.  religion is one of the few things in the world that can cause peace and war at the same time.  it would be great to share a spiritual experience with a group of people enjoying the same things i do.  in fact, i do that sometimes now when i get together with all of you.  one of the beautiful things about the freedoms we have left is the freedom to think for ourselves and come up with our own ideas.  while my views on god, the higher power, the universe, the afterlife, and life itself may be similar to many other people, ultimately theres going to be a few things that just dont coincide.  i was born and raised catholic and it wasnt until after high school through some person stuff in my life, that i was able to see the corruption and fakeness of much of the catholic church.  im sure someone in this forum can disagree about that statement.  thats the beauty of it!  since then, ive come to form my own views which happens to take big chunks of most of the major religions in the world along with science and bundle them into what i believe.  when you start talking about a church of psy and having to set down guidlines or some sort of bible or traditions, values, and practices….that starts to interfere with what i believe and how i choose to believe it.  i dont know enough about it, but im going to take a leap and say that theres probably a good chunk of hinduism and possibly buddhism that accepts psytrance as a way to experience life and rejoice in their beliefs.  id actually really like to hear some of their views about a psytrance church and what that would mean to them and their beliefs.  ive gotten the impression from the few people that ive met that practice those religions, that they are VERY passionate about those beliefs.  the “world religion” came to mind about halfway through this thread because i could see this idea as being the “world religion”.  like i said earlier, i think that when the time comes for everyone to expand and open up to the 4th dimension and beyond and connect with the planet and each other, this religion will just “BE”.  i think that this could be dangerous ground to tread on.  i kind of wandered all over the place here but thanks for listening to my thoughts. 

fixer was right, if you are going to play the game, then play the game.  if you are wanting a 100% legal place to throw psy parties and festivals without fear of repercusion or penalty, there IS a way to do that.  you are either going to have to play the game and work with the powers that be to work with the governmental entities and laws….or you are going to have to spend YOUR own hard earned money to buy land in the middle of nowhere and build what you want to build and do what you want to do partially in secret and respectful to neighbors anywhere in the vicinity (for noise, etc), and not charge a dime for anything while either enforcing the laws that the nation, state, county, city, etc has set down….or face the repercusions for your actions which could mean jailtime or worse case scenario, a loss of life.  if you think about a lot of the shit that goes on at psy parties, you understand what i mean.  for many of us, its an excuse to cut loose and be ourselves and do what we want…but we also realize that there are consequences with the law and our own health when we do.  actually, i take that back…SOME of us understand that.  i see a lot of younger faces and newer faces coming in that DONT understand that.  unfortunately those of us that do understand that also understand that if something bad were to happen, its very possible that some, one, or all may take the blame (ie promotors, djs, venue owners).

as long as this doesnt encroach on my belief system, destroy my lifestyle and is a positive and legal thing…im all for it.  if we can think this through and do it, lets do it.  lets do it for the right reasons though.

i think we all would love a place to be able to throw psy parties at nonstop, lets make it happen the right way with the right ideas.  im just not sure putting religion into it is going to be the right way at this time

[thefixer]

I'm not cynical, I have studied actual case law. I am educated, there is a difference.

Unfortunately in our country the new kinds of religions aren't well understood by the authorities. Case law is informed by churches that look ALOT like Christianity, so you almost have to ape Christianity in some ways to be taken seriously. Running around naked in the woods (paganism) or dancing to all-night music (psytrance) are too *weird* to be understood by judges or the public. Only massive activism and education of the public is going to change that. Right now hardly anyone in this country even knows what psytrance is. The pagans are way ahead of you in that respect.

[Energon]

f you think about a lot of the shit that goes on at psy parties, you understand what i mean.  for many of us, its an excuse to cut loose and be ourselves and do what we want…but we also realize that there are consequences with the law and our own health when we do.  actually, i take that back…SOME of us understand that.  i see a lot of younger faces and newer faces coming in that DONT understand that. 

Quite a rant  ;D

Out of your whole post this specific quote definitely speaks to me. It's a topic that my wife and I discuss fairly often. It's heartbreaking to think about some of the younger people I know who seemed so amazing and full of light only a couple years ago who are completely, utterly burnt out and uninteresting today. I do my best never to judge other people's choices though ; I'm far from perfect … It's soooo easy to get caught up and go over the edge  :'(

It makes me think of the credits at the end of “A Scanner Darkly”

[edais]

now, i get the impression that pretty much the main reason for wanting to create a “psytrance religion” is to be able to have a 100% legal, anytime at the drop of a hat lets throw down, type of place to load with your own sound, visuals, equipment, and not have to worry about cops coming in and busting the party or finding anything illegal going on, and be able to play as loud as you want. 

Hm…that wouldn't be the main reason for me.  Religion is overrated.  I differentiate between spirituality and religion.  I don't need a psytrance religion.  The former however, I find myself craving more.  But really, the only thing you're looking for with the 100% legal mumbo jumbo is peace of mind.  I think that will come with time.  How often in the midwest, or even in the US do psy parties (100% psy-parties) get shut down by the cops?  I may be way off, but from what I've gathered even just by word of mouth, the numbers seem kind of low to warrant too much paranoia.  We throw the damn parties, and we're methodical and careful enough so that we get by.  But there's always room for improvement, and as the years go by, the importance of these things will continue to grow so that even small chances of something getting fucked up is too much to risk.  So we do it right–find the land, isolate the sound, keep each other safe, come together, rejoice, and then we go home and live, work, and pay taxes in our government that allows us to have the ability to do it.  Then we have peace of mind.  Granted it has been seriously going downhill recently, but I still have hope that we can come out of this without it killing off completely our ability to be free and do and think as we want.

The point is, this is one of those things that I usually just look at and say, “well what's really fucked here?”  We just threw a killer New Years Party, loud music all night long, in the middle of a city and we all had a great time.  No one got hurt, no cops ever even came to check up on things, and no one did anything royaly stupid.  Every single party that we participate in is an example of what people can do when they come together in this country or another.  I'm beginning to think that the force that drives this is beyond any of us, but I leave that to speculation.

There Hurt, that's my young person full-of-optomism viewpoint for you.

[Robyo]

@ Fixer, I was just saying as an example that the Ghost Dance religion used dancing as a major component in their belief system. We all know what happened at Wounded Knee. I hope you're not saying it was the Native American's fault the government came in and continually screwed them over and slaugtered them??
I realize you've been studying this subject for awhile and I appreciate your knowledge on the subject. I see the oveall arch of this thread as quite positive. If individuals see their love of psytrance in spiritual or religious terms, more power to them. It's awesome that some people are trying to find deeper spiritual meaning than a night of wretched excess.

[acidity]

Nice topic. Didnt notice it before. Since I am not an American so cant say about the laws but if you people do end up starting up something like that, I would love to become a member…

BTW, can you follow 2 religion simultaneously???? I mean I dont want to leave my original religion i.e. Hinduism 🙂

[Author]

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